How sad

[Tonto]

[QUOTE=dayag;312306]Sorry I wasn't clearer. I wasn't referring to the Ottomans. When I wrote "If we had been left under their rule, they would have exterminated us," I was referring to the Palestinians at the end of the Mandate period.



Wasn't the palestinian plan to allow the Jews to buy all the land they wanted and then confiscate it from them after the British left? Come on andak, you gotta know the answer on this one! Let's see the "spin".

[andak01]

Originally Posted by bararallu

Do you consider it plausible: to have women see their fathers and brothers slaughtered, beheaded actually IIRC, and then forcefully bound in quick ceremony, sexually engaged, and not consider it Rape?

What I consider is that taking women captive after a military victory was the norm under the Quraish, the Byzantines, the Greeks, the Romans and the Jews (at such time as they had military victories. To pretend otherwise is not honest. It does not make the practice right, but Jesus (SAW) himself didn't abolish slavery or give women equal wages or the vote many other things that we take for granted today.

I don't see that Muhammad (SAW) has to meet a standard far higher than that of Joshua or Moses or Elijah or any Byzantine or Persian ruler for his religion to be acceptable. Our beliefs are our beliefs, you don't have to share that respect. But don't expect that Muhammad (SAW) has a standard that accords more with modern secular values than that found in the religious doctrine of his contemporaries or those before him.

Jews in Arabia at the time of Muhammad owned slaves. Jews in Byzantium owned slaves. In fact, Constantine decreed a law to forbid them from owning Christian slaves. Jews were involved in the slave trade just like everyone else. And whenever women are involved in the slave trade, sexual slavery isn't far from the surface.

You can pretend that a Muslim is immune to human greed when involved in slavery, but that would make them unique among all the world's people, because, there is slave traffikking the world over to this day shared among adherrents of every religion.

Again, I just want to clarify this point, which I hope you similarly see as cynically misogynist, clarified before I get into it further. Since I hope that you will not defend wife beaters claiming that their wives need a small tap on the head to get their minds straight- nor situations that go far further still.

Anything that you would consider wife beating, I do as well. Any protections such as shelters, counciling or police protection that are afforded to non-Muslims in our society should be afforded to Muslim women in all societies. The Quran says that a man should be the protector of women and that is impossible if he is harming them in any way.

[andak01]

Originally Posted by dayag

The point I was trying to make was solely that Israel's borders are not based on those in Bible which would be much larger than its current size.

Not to say that the kernel of Zionism isn't contained in the Torah or that none of the Zionist leaders ever wished for those ancient borders.

Without the Torah, Israel could just as well be in Uganda or South America as was once suggested. It is impossible to exaggerate the specific importance that the story of the Torah has making that spot THE spot.

[andak01]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Wasn't the palestinian plan to allow the Jews to buy all the land they wanted and then confiscate it from them after the British left? Come on andak, you gotta know the answer on this one! Let's see the "spin".

How would you go about proving such a claim? I forgot, you don't do the proving thing, do you?

[Mediocrates]

In Iran - they have convicted quite a few people for these protests. Some got the death sentence. Some got prison terms. On teenager who happens to be Jewish got 2.5 years for throwing a rock. One person got 13 years for some vague offense.